The rotocasting process for Italian cymbals is much older than that.

[COLOR="Purple"]....show me, please. A reference ?

To my knowledge, Zanki was the first company to employ Rotocasting; and this was developed by Fiorello using the UFIP facilities.

The story goes that "Zanchi" lasted into the '70's before becoming "Zanki".

I have '70's Zankis...several...and they do not appear whatsoever to have been Rotocast cymbals. They appear to have been traditionally made B20's; sorta reminiscent of A. Zildjians in their craftsmanship; generally a tad heavier than most A's of the time.

The first Rotocast cymbals post-date these 70's Zankis.

I am not saying you are wrong...but asking for a reference that Rotocasting was being done 'much' earlier than the 80's.....[/COLOR]

I know that this is an old thread but let me just say that I believe some of the info on rotocasting is being inverted. There were two Zanchi bros. that were a part of UFIP. It is my understanding that, like Rosati's grandson that started Tosco (after working with UFIP), the Zanchi brother that left took his knowledge of rotocasting WITH HIM to his own company. I have in my personal collection a 10" cymbal that was made by UFIP in approximately the late 1950's, and looking at the ripples in the bell, you can see the tell-tale signs of rotocasting. This things is OLD like Krupa.

Zanchi F & F cymbals were rotocast. The early Zanki years they were rotocast as well, but the later ones were not.

Hi. I recently purchased a 22 “ride from the Zanchi company, I searched a lot of information on the web to find out about its age.

In all that information there is something that is repeated in the logo of these dishes and is “Zanchi F & F” followed by a drawing that I assume is the manufacturer’s logo. In my case, the engraving is “F. ZANCHI” followed by the same logo. Nor does the usual “Vibra” inscription of those years appear …

In the first case I see that it will be a series from 1947 to 1970, the year in which it changes its name to “Zanki”. But I can not determine my plate in time, that “F” before the name, is what I see most relevant and at the same time unknown.

As a detail I can say that the hole is smaller than the most modern cymbal (something I think is usual in vintage cymbals).

I do not know the method to include photos, if I could upload images maybe it would be helpful for you.

Thank you very much to all.

Welcome Serg,

F is for Fiorello Zanchi. The illegible portion over on the right is a coat of arms. You can see it more clearly here on this version of the trademark stamp:

[img]http://black.net.nz/Italian/images/zanchi-vibra.png[/img]

According to Pinksterboer (p174)

But the particular name Vibra doesn't appear on all their cymbals. There were other lines produced in different production eras.

The 1947 date seems to come from when Fiorello Zanchi left the UFIP collective to go out on his own. I presume the F & F refers to Fiorello & Figli in English Fiorello & Sons (see Pinsterboer, p172). I don't know the exact ordering in time for the different trademarks and how these relate to the brand name changes. Since the sons came into the business later on, perhaps the F Zanchi is earlier than Fiorello F & F. You might get a clearer answer if you email UFiP and ask specifically if they know. The change of ink and branding to Zanki is just said to have happened in the 1970s some time, not the specific year 1970.

The development of Rotocasting is better documented than is suggested by those older posts above. It is also quite different from some of what is suggested above. Depending on which reference you go with, experimentation began around the mid 60s but didn't go into mainline production until 1975 and the patent was filed in 1977. That's from Luca Luciano, Italian Vintage Drums and Cymbals (2012, p129, p136-137). A slightly different year of 1978 appears in Hugo Pinksterboer (1992, p200) The Cymbal Book, although the difference between 1975 and 1978 might be when UFiP started producing Rotocast cymbals under their own company name.

What is entirely missing from much of the discussion about Rotocasting is that the Italian method used gravity casting (near vertical mold in the shape of a cymbal) prior to Rotocasting. This difference in production method seems to have been lost to most people even though it is written up quite clearly and has been out there for over 25 years. Yet I still see people selling "1950 Italian Rotocast Cymbals" on eBay.

I don't know of any way to differentiate a Rotocast cymbal from a Gravity Cast cymbal except by looking at the crystal structure of the alloy in thin section under a microscope. Occasionally claims are made that there are some particular swirl marks or ripples (most often on the bell) which indicate Rotocasting. I've documented these on 1950s cymbals and have suggested that they are an artifact of the lathing process not Rotocasting versus Gravity Casting. I then discussed these with UK master cymbal smith Matt Nolan and he says they are a form of lathe chatter and that he has watched this sort of pattern appear on cymbals as he lathes them. This is the annotated photo I presented to him

[img]http://black.net.nz/Italian/images/swirls-italian.png[/img]

and he confirmed that both the swirls and the more familiar form of lathe chatter are to be seen on the bell of this 1950s Italian cymbal. I've also got a library of examples where swirls appear on a range of other cymbals from entirely different production regions (Turkey, Switzerland, Canada, USA, China) which suggests the the claims about swirls and rotocasting are unfounded, or that we need much better detail on what is or isn't the precise kind of swirl or ripple which indicates rotocasting. Until we sort that out it doesn't look good for reading the ripples and swirls and inferring Rotocasting. But of course that could change with further work.

As far as mounting hole diameter goes, I've got three UFiP cymbals from the 1950s early 1960s (the Pyramid stamp period) and they have smaller mounting holes. Although there is an association between earlier production and smaller mounting hole, we don't really have enough data to start getting into specific years for a changeover.

I have a set of 13" hi hats that I use a lot. Crisp, dry, and slightly trashy. Easy to play and control.

The nice thing is that they are so reasonably priced when you can find them. My son Milestones scored a pair of Zanchi 14" thin hats in excellent condition for $99. They sound terrific and are great jazz hats. Definitely B-20 metal.

Here a pic of store display I have UFIP rotocasting .

You'll probably find that it's not bang on 18". They were metric sized cymbals. They're nice. I like them a lot. I see quite a few pop up here in Euro Disney land, eh, Europe that is. An 18" like that would typically go for more than 50, but less than 100.. Euro that is, but I don't know if you crazy cats in America might pay more due to them perhaps being more scarce on that side of the pond. There are a few 22 inchers up on German eBay now and there's a seller selling one that doesn't know what he / she is selling because the stamp is faded out, but I know it's a Zanchi. What is with that stamp anyway? I would love to know the story behind it!

Many thanks Zenstat!

As you say, the change to the Zanki name is clear in the story. But, what I do not see clearly or example anywhere is that "F" previous Zanchi. I always see images of "Zanchi F & F". It is my biggest doubt.

As you indicate, I already sent an email with all these doubts to Ufip. But unfortunately I have not had an answer ... at the moment.