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Snare Beds? Last viewed: 37 minutes ago

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I'm fairly new at the vintage drum thing....the repairing, cleaning and collecting old drums. I have around 20 new and old snare drums mostly Gretsch. The two drums that do not give me any problems with simpathetic snare buzz and tuning are the drums that have NO snare beds.....= my 2007 Gretsch Purewood African Mahogan and my Ludwig early 80's Acrolite. Even though I'm a Gretsch drum guy mostly....I'd have to say my Acrolite is one hell of a drum and is easily one of the best I own sound-wise and playability.

The other drums have snare beds and I'm always trying to tweek them around the bed in order to get a good snare sound.

My question is.....why do snare drums need snare beds when they work just fine...and in my case better...without them? I've read where they are needed to seat the snares....I can tell you they are not needed.....in my experiance anyway.

thoughts?

Posted on 12 years ago
#1
Posts: 5550 Threads: 576
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one of the reason your acro sound good is the hoops were still lighter in weight that helps the sound later the heavy hoops dulls it up thats why the 60's acros are 1 of the best sounding drum

April 2nd 1969 scarfed pink champagne holly wood and 65/66 downbeat snare, and , supra same year very minty kit old pies
66/67 downbeat with canister
Super 400 small round knob
1967 super classic obp





once the brass ceases to glitter, and the drum looses its luster, and the stage remains dark, all you have left is the timbre of family.
Posted on 12 years ago
#2
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From Kona

I'm fairly new at the vintage drum thing....the repairing, cleaning and collecting old drums. I have around 20 new and old snare drums mostly Gretsch. The two drums that do not give me any problems with simpathetic snare buzz and tuning are the drums that have NO snare beds.....= my 2007 Gretsch Purewood African Mahogan and my Ludwig early 80's Acrolite. Even though I'm a Gretsch drum guy mostly....I'd have to say my Acrolite is one hell of a drum and is easily one of the best I own sound-wise and playability.The other drums have snare beds and I'm always trying to tweek them around the bed in order to get a good snare sound.My question is.....why do snare drums need snare beds when they work just fine...and in my case better...without them? I've read where they are needed to seat the snares....I can tell you they are not needed.....in my experiance anyway.thoughts?

Let me preface my response with...

IN MY OPINION, Snare beds are currently only used to add complexity to overall snare drum manufacturing process so that the profit margin of the drum can be increased by claiming the process makes it better. Adding a bed only takes a minute or two in mass production for experience builders The additional value of the drum makes it worth the money so it is a very high profit margin item to add. It also makes a lot of potential drum builders nervous since an illusion of proper, high end snare drum must have a snare bed. This keeps amateurs from attempting to build their own snares and instead, they buy from the big names that can keep the illusion alive by adding the bed.

From a traditional approach, it was necessary at one time. Now it solves a problem that no longer exists due to fixed strand metal snares. The best explanation of having this that I have found is here:

http://www.drumfoundry.com/t-drum_snare_bed_theory.aspx

Since snares strands in current drums do not extend beyond the width of the shell, they are a little pointless for drumset applications. The strands will not flex over the edge and cause a problem of it not touching the bottom head.

Now in Marching Snares, the snares typically do extend beyond the shell. The below picture is from a Pearl snare, and it does appear to have a bed (or maybe the picture is just a little funky). I know SFZ Yamaha snares from the line where I used to teach do not have beds. Nor did Yamaha pre-free floater snares. My older ludwig snare does not either. I never noticed them on Dynasty Snares, though I have only changed the heads/tuned a few of those so I may have over looked it. Here is an up close on the bottom of a Pearl Snare and one to show the mechanism:

[IMG]http://www.lonestarpercussion.com/Pearl-DA-13B-image.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://drumsonsale.com/img/p/2074-1291.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://drumsonsale.com/img/p/2075-1292.jpg[/IMG]

The thing to note, is that current marching snares have height adjustability on the strainers and butt ends for the snares. They also have tension adjustments for individual strands of snares (on the butt end, as seen in the first and third picture) or usually some type of dial adjustment to tighten all of the snares simultaneously on the second picture). It's not uncommon for someone to tune each individual snare strand like a guitar string to a specific pitch. Then, when setting the height, having the snares just barley touch the drum head and not create any angle between what is on the drum and what is not on the drum. I have however seen many drummers tighten the height adjustment and snare tension down like there is no tomorrow which really chokes the snare sound and stretches the guts to make them worthless (beds would be good for those drummers).

Now with all of that said, I agree 100% with you. I have heard way too many good sounding snares without the beds to believe any of the hype.

Tan

Posted on 12 years ago
#3
Posts: 5356 Threads: 87
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I was always under the impression snare beds were needed/used for snares that extended past the shells edges. So the snare wires would float and not get choked by the edges of the shell. To be honest this is a very timely and interesting topic. I have been thinking about building a snare and using a vintage style 3 pt strainer with extended snares. And have been wanting to ask the same question. ;)

Glenn.

Not a guru just havin fun with some old dusty drums.
Posted on 12 years ago
#4
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Here's a copy of an old article by Ron Dunnett on snare beds:

Of all of the details and attention to detail that is paid to the various aspects and components that make up a snare drum, the snare bed is probably the most neglected and misunderstood part of the instrument.

Think back to all of the literature you have seen and read about drums and drumming and see if you remember any sort of discussion regarding snare beds. My guess is that like myself, you really won't recall much at all. I'm not sure why this is. Perhaps some companies don't have a grasp on the importance of the snare beds and the role it plays in determining how a snare drum will perform. And it's been my experience that some of them have occasionally forgotten to even install them, let alone discuss them! This was one of the reasons I began making drums...

History

Snare beds appear to have been in use since the earliest days of drum building when the beds were hand hewn with a wood file. While they were somewhat crudely placed, they were some of the best

Definition

The snare bed is the indentation or dip that is located on the bottom bearing edge of the snare drum shell and centered under both the snare release and the butt plate. The length and depth and contour of the beds vary greatly among builders and manufacturers. It is located between the lugs that are located on either side of the throw off and butt end. The snare bed is one of five elements that go into the making of the snare function, the other four being the release mechanism, the snare head, the snare attachment and the snare wire set.

Adjustment Axis

It is important to understand that the snare wire adjustment operates on both horizontal and vertical axis.

The vertical axis is the movement of the snare wire set 'into' the drum head. This adjustment controls the amount of snare set tension, deflection and recoil of the snare set and thus the sensitivity and response of the drum. Deflection and recoil may also be effected by the means used to attached the snares to the throw off and butt.

Snare set control as a Product of Bed Depth

On Dunnett Classic snare drums the range of control is evident in the amount of usable vertical travel. An effective way to illustrate this concept is to take a piece of plastic food wrap and stretch it over the bottom of your snare drum in place of the head so that the surface ofthe film is taught. Next, take a yardstick and lay it across the covered bottom of the drum so that it lies in the center of the drum where the snare wires would normally lie. With one hand on each end of the yard stick push down until you feel the stick touch the bottom of the snare beds. The distance that you are able to push down is the amount of vertical travel your drum has to work with. What happens in a drum that has shallow beds or no beds at all is that vertical travel is limited or non-existant. In this condition virtually any tension that is applied via the throw off mechanism merely stretches the wires along the horizontal surface of the head. Stretching the snare wires in this way severly restricts the movement of the drum head and snare set deflection, thus choking the drum.

Unless the drum is equipped with an adjustable butt end or an independant horizontal tensioning system (ie: Dynasonic), independant horizontal and vertical adjustments cannot be made. In the case of the Rogers Dynasonic system, a bed was not required because the wire set did not extend past the bearing edges and thus it was still possible to have some vertical adjustment. See diagram 1. Independent tensioning systems that do extend past the head do require snare beds. Most snare drums to do not come equipped with an independant horizontal adjustment system and thus they rely on the snare bed... As the snare set is being tensioned from a slack position it is actually being drawn up into the head (vertical axis). When the tension has increased to the point where the wires have "bottomed out" on the snare beds and the snare wire set can no longer up into the head a transition that occurs and any further tensioning past the bottoming point is strictly horizontal - the wires are merely being stretched across the surface of the head. This is usually a problem in snare drums that have shallow or non existent snare beds as this usually results in the drum "choking".

'Choking' is a term used to describe a condition in which the snare wire set and/or the heads have been over tensioned to the point where the snare wires no longer function effectively (negative deflection) or the heads no longer resonate freely. A drum that has a deep snare bed substantially decreases the possiility of choking through an increased range of vertical adjustment.

------------------------------------------------

Hope the info helps...

John

Too many great drums to list here!

http://www.walbergandauge.com/VintageVenue.htm
Posted on 12 years ago
#5
Posts: 2713 Threads: 555
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Lots of Pros and cons and good points everyone.

In the case of my two snare drums without snare beds - mentioned in the outset here - I just don't get that whole 'lots of adjustment" idea regarding deep snare beds when these two drums 'without' the beds outshine most of my high-end (for me high end is $600-$2000 which includes my LangPercussion snare drum) snare drums. I don't think that I am that bad of a judge of snare sound that I could be way off and my two drums without the beds are actually crap and I'm the only one that likes them....you think? I'm no expert - all I'm saying is I've spend way too much time trying to fiddle with drums with snare beds to be happy with them.....so far at least.

All the discussion here is good and I am enjoying reading all the feedback.

Posted on 12 years ago
#6
Posts: 5356 Threads: 87
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Gary, sorry to hear your not getting the sound you like out of those snares! That would really bug me especially on the higher end ones. Your LP snare is beautiful. Maybe you can post some details and pics of some of them (heads used, snares used and wire count, shape and depth of beds) and maybe someone will notice something or suggest possible soliutions. Those drumfoundry links have some good reading on bed shape, depth and contours. I guess there are pros and cons to each.

Glenn.

Glenn.

Not a guru just havin fun with some old dusty drums.
Posted on 12 years ago
#7
Posts: 2713 Threads: 555
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Thanks for the reply

Yes - my LP drum is very nice.

I can get my drums to operate fine. My whole issue is why should one have to tweek the drums/snares to operate properly for these snare drums that have snare beds and the ones that do not have snare beds seem to work fine when all you may have do anything is turn a butt end or Strainer knob here and there to get them to run fine?

I thought it was just me but it looks like a lot of folks are wondering why some of the modern drums have snare beds at all if they do not really need them......in most cases.

I'm not a drum builder so I may be way off with my comments. Please forgive me if I am.........just learning here.

From FFR428

Gary, sorry to hear your not getting the sound you like out of those snares! That would really bug me especially on the higher end ones. Your LP snare is beautiful. Maybe you can post some details and pics of some of them (heads used, snares used and wire count, shape and depth of beds) and maybe someone will notice something or suggest possible soliutions. Those drumfoundry links have some good reading on bed shape, depth and contours. I guess there are pros and cons to each. Glenn.

Posted on 12 years ago
#8
Posts: 6524 Threads: 37
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I always thought it was because you don`t want the tention of the wires to conduct into the shell, like putting both hands on the shell and pressing,...it changes the resonance !! I tink !!

Besides,..... they got nowhere else to sleep !!

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 12 years ago
#9
Posts: 5356 Threads: 87
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I'm with you there I'm learning too. Sometimes the hard way. I was wondering if there was a difference in your snare beds that was affecting the sound. And if one design was better/worse than the other. I only have one COB snare and it has no bed. So not much to go on and compare. But very interested in the outcome.

Glenn.

Not a guru just havin fun with some old dusty drums.
Posted on 12 years ago
#10
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