Hi Tommyp

You are a great guy. No doubt about it! My sons and I look forward to your comments and we always appreciate your thoughts and input even when stated with blunt force.

Please don?t misunderstand me, I don?t want a dual tone muffler Dyna Sonic because I think it will work some sonic magic, I would want this piece because;

1. I believed it was built with two tone mufflers by the factory

2. It was modified by a top dealer like the late Ellis Tollin, if they even did such a thing.

3. It is and I quote ?is just NUTS!?

In guitars for example it would be like buying an original two pick-up Stratocaster! Or a Fender Vibrolux heavily modified by Caesar Diaz etc. It has nothing to do with whether I think that a Caesar Diaz modified Vibrolux is better or not. And I wouldn?t buy the two pick up Stratocaster because I think it is better than a three pick up Strat! I am not thinking is it better or inferior? I give no thought or consideration to the original chief designer?s intentions!

Are the anomalies stupid or ridiculous??? For some reason I don?t think so. But I am not looking at it from a niche perspective or from the view point of the original design. But that is just my opinion. It is a good thing for the Stratocaster that Jimi Hendrix didn?t understand what the Stratocaster was designed for? CBS had decided to discontinue the Stratocaster due to lack of sales when along came Jimi!

I am not saying that this is how anyone else should approach this. It is just how I approach it. With all that said I don?t want you to think that I just buy the oddball stuff, I buy the straight stuff also.

Once again thank you for your thoughts. I value your perspective! And I appreciate the effort you expend on this forum. Without participation like yours these forums would be of less value.

Dave

Hi David,

I agree with what you say. But in my experience these are not usually the people doing 95% of the modifications to fine instruments. Without seeing the drum I don't know if the holes look factory. Even if holes do appear to be perfect factory holes, for some of the very reasons you state there would always be some doubt, unless we find that old guy from the factory that remembered doing some like that. But even then...

Best to you!

Dave

Ah jeeze Dave... now you've gone and done it! I thought I had said all I was going to say regarding this particular subject... ( with "blunt force" no less! ) ... and THAT is what I want to comment on. So...

Firstly, THANKS! for the very nice comments regarding my writings/thoughts on this board. That was very nice of you! This particular forum is an excellent one... probably one of the BEST in some specific areas regarding vintage drums.

I had to laugh at the "we appreciate your thoughts and input even when stated with blunt force"... I don't know Dave, "blunt force" sounds so, oh... harsh. I prefer to call it a "matter of fact" tone. I have spent many years owning/playing/researching/restoring Rogers drums, and what happens is one gains an awful lot of knowledge through actually "doing", as opposed to just "saying", this is how it is. I am very confident in what I speak having to do with Rogers drums... I certainly don't make it up as I go! Thus, yeah, I would say that it can come off as very "matter of fact", but certainly not with "blunt force", and never meant to belittle or be condescending.

If there is an issue being discussed that there is no way I could possibly know for sure about, like the WMP Dynasonic w/two tone controls in this case, well yeah, I enjoy a good discussion/debate, and I will add what I think may be going on with this particular piece, and in a "matter of fact" way. And again, that comes from a confidence gained through YEARS of owing/playing/researching/restoring Rogers drums. It also goes without saying that I am amazed at how much we still don't know about some of these drums! So,

Thanks for the nice words!... and I guess I just don't mince words... but now you know why that is! Speaking of "blunt force", Ploughmans post #20 says it all, and in a way that leaves nothing else to be said, and I have to agree totally with his very simple statement:

"You can't dampen the resonant on a Dynasonic without turning it into crap".

Excellent Ploughman! That is exactly what I was saying... except I tended to be a bit more loquacious!

Tommyp

Tommyp, Your Loquaciousness is fine. From your last post it is obvious we see at least a few things quite differently. As it pertains to this subject, some people might think that a ?Matter of fact? statement, might go something like ?using a second muffler on the resonant head would defeat the design engineer?s intended purpose? and the discussion continues.

Why might somebody want to defeat the design engineer?s intended purpose?

Words like ridiculous, stupid, ruined etc. can be used in such a way that these words will sometimes slow a discussion. In certain situations and depending on who you are discussing a subject with, these words can leave little room for discussion.

Is it not possible that some drummer at some point felt a need to defeat the design engineers intended purpose for this drum? If the drummer thought he needed a second muffler for the resonant, would it be stupid or ridiculous (or crap) to add the second tone muffler for the resonant? The old adage in the recording studio is, ?if it sounds good use it.

The band Mountain defeated the Celestion Speaker design engineers intended design by using a razor knife to cut slits in the speakers of their amplifiers. This gave them a new sound which gave us the classic ?Mississippi Queen?! Was this stupid or ridiculous? Jimi Hendrix submerged speakers in water for recordings. These are devices that were designed for disturbing air molecules and/or sensing variations in air pressure. Water??? Was this stupid or ridiculous? Maybe that did ruin those items.

Having never dampened the resonant head of one my Dyna-Sonics with an internal or external muffler, I don?t know if it is ?crap? or not. I guess it could be truly ?crap? depending on you definition of crap. I don?t know?

I can see now that I could have used ?matter of fact? rather than, ?blunt force? to maintain a better relationship with you. I would like our relationship to be as good as possible. I was not my intention to ruffle your feathers, offend you or anything like that. I can also see that when answered question of ?Why I am so interested in this drum?? I should have just answered, ?I am curious?. A short post like that would have been sufficient and stated all that I had to say. Hopefully I will learn from Ploughman. I was just hoping for discussion and discovery in an area of curiosity.

Tommyp, I can tell that you feel at least somewhat offended and for that I apologize. When posting the post that you object to, I was feeling no ill or critical feelings. I had actually very positive feelings. I had hoped to enlighten you as to why someone might be curious about that drum. I obviously failed. I hope we can have discussions in the future. As I said before I value and appreciate your insight and input whether or not it is delivered in a ?matter of fact? manner. Sorry for any offense!

Have a great day!

Dave

Hey Dave!

You have to READ a bit more carefully Dave! I said I had to LAUGH at your comment... never did I say I was offended... because I'm not! Look, here's the extreme bottom line/final comments on this issue from me:

You can do anything you want Dave! No one is going to judge you... and neither am I! If you want a Dynasonic with two tone controls/mufflers, by all means! I was simply stating that a Dynasonic set up in that manner isn't a Dynasonic... it completely defeats the entire design/purpose of the drum. But!... I have no problem with it, as it's not mine, nor would I do that to one of mine.

Our relationship is great Dave... I'm not that kind of a guy... nor do I bruise easily. There was never a problem. I AM passionate about Rogers drums though, and that should come shining through... that and the fact that I have YEARS of experience with them, and not just collecting. I make my living playing Rogers drums... and I do know how lucky I am! So...

We are certainly good Dave... there was never a problem on my end. You know, what did that drum get up to? $2200.00 I think? That seller should have taken it!

Tommyp

Very good! And I can do that in the future. Yeah, it was over $2200.00 on the fastest rise I have seen for a wood Dyna on eBay when the seller pulled it.

Dave

To stop my dad from chasing after bizarre vintage musical pieces would be to tie a birds wings... It would also be like engaging a muffle to the bottom side of a 1966 WMP Dyna-sonic!

Thank you two for the thread. Personally, seeing that second set of holes hurt me inside. The Dyna-sonic is such a beautiful, big, breathing (but still focused) instrument that even moderate muffling seems absurd.

TommyP, will you be at the Chicago drum show??? Hope to see you there.

Isaac Carpenter

Issac!

It would have been nice to meet at the Chicago show! I went two years ago, and it was a fine time. Unfortunately, I have gigs on Friday/Saturday and can't sub them out... thus I will miss the show this year. I will be at the CT Vintage Drum Show this Sunday coming though. That show gets better each year!... still in it's infancy compared to the Chicago show, but it's a nice hang. Thanks!!

Tommyp