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~1970's Ludwig Black Oyster Pearl Jazzette~ Last viewed: 2 minutes ago

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From Osahead2

Additional photos of the Ludwig Drums are posted here... ENJOY! http://s1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag142/Osahead2/

VDF readers you can go to my photo page and see more pic's if you like.

Also, I don't want to confuse any of the readers of this thread. So, I will say this... my GROUPING mainly consist of a goofy 14x16 bass drum... a 14x18 bass drum... and a 12x18 Jazzette bass drum that is part of the GROUP too.

I was told back in 1986 they all came into the store together USED as a group... so, I took them all out of the store TOGETHER... for $400.00.

The story, I was told about the GROUPING might be full of BS but I'm starting to see some positive validly that could make sense. Why on earth would anybody need so many bass drums? To test for sound? Hell, I don't know? And please guys, I'm not talking about Ludwig double bass rock kits from the 70's & 80's.... as the three Ludwig bass drums, I own are jazz sizes.

~ A true Gretsch & Camco fanatic ~
Posted on 12 years ago
#41
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Well I checked my serials and here is what I have:

Bass drum 12x18: 11992958

8x12: 1192950

14x14: 1193690

All three drums have granitone interior.

Jazzfest was bought seperately from the set by me and it is nat maple inside with a paper sticker that reads 4272

The serial of this drum is 930862

The original supra to this set was long gone as I actually just got the three drums and a 1966 matching jazzfest which I sold to get the 1970's version. Hope this helps!

Kurt

"wfl does not stand for world football league!"
Posted on 12 years ago
#42
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From wflkurt

Well I checked my serials and here is what I have:Bass drum 12x18: 119929588x12: 119295014x14: 1193690All three drums have granitone interior. Kurt

Thanks Kurt, I'm looking at your serial number on your bass drum you posted, I think you might have added a extra "9"... but, I think I get your intent.

So your 12x14 Jazzette bass drum has the granitone interior... I wonder what serial number did Ludwig start spraying this process because my serial number 1029445 12x14 Jazzette bass drum does NOT have sprayed granitone as mine are all clear maple shell interior...

Now, I was told by other VDF members that Ludwig started using granitone interiors around mid-1971 range.... but, my serial number is from 1976???, I've been told. So, if so... clearly that does not add up... why my kit was NOT sprayed with granitone plus to add to my headach my other drums with that Jazzette kit have no serial numbers at all... hum?

~ A true Gretsch & Camco fanatic ~
Posted on 12 years ago
#43
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Question: When did Ludwig officially start offering wraps on Jazzette's? I take it your beautiful silver sparkle kit (with transition 12x8 tom) was built in the range of SEP70/OCT70?

I thought wraps were first introduced in 1973 as a catalog item? And, I understand a few keystone examples with wraps were sold before 1970... but in 1970, 1971 and 1972 were the B/O Jazzette kits made in those years with WRAPS considered special order when they were being sold mainly in natural OR wainut thermo-gloss?

~ A true Gretsch & Camco fanatic ~
Posted on 12 years ago
#44
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Dana Bentley has one of these kits; B/O badge. I don't remember all the particulars, but if you want more info and the serial's off of these I'm sure he wouldn't mind. It seems to me this is either a wood stain or red sparkle (yeah, I know... quite a difference but I really don't remember.)

I've got to head over there sometime this week. I'll get pictures.

fishwaltz
Posted on 12 years ago
#45
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Honestly I think ludwig would sell anything back then catalog item or not. It's not like it was hard to wrap a jazzette since the only extra wrapped drum was the bass drum since the toms were already available in the downbeat set up.

Honestly I have seen far more wrapped jazzettes than wood stained ones. Most of the ones I have seen were keystone too. It's hard to read the serial number on my bass drum as the previous owner(s) folded the rail onto the badge scratching the heck out of the badge. I was under the assumption that my set was in the 1972-73 range. There are no date stamps anywhere.

"wfl does not stand for world football league!"
Posted on 12 years ago
#46
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From Osahead2

Question: When did Ludwig officially start offering wraps on Jazzette's? I take it your beautiful silver sparkle kit (with transition 12x8 tom) was built in the range of SEP70/OCT70? I thought wraps were first introduced in 1973 as a catalog item? And, I understand a few keystone examples with wraps were sold before 1970... but in 1970, 1971 and 1972 were the B/O Jazzette kits made in those years with WRAPS considered special order when they were being sold mainly in natural OR wainut thermo-gloss?

Wraps are not offered in the catalogs I've got covering the 3 ply shell era. In the 1967 catalog they were "mahogany, natural maple, or lacquer finish only". Then natural maple dropped out and there was only ever a choice of "mahogany or lacquer finishes" in the catalogs from 1971 and 1973. No wraps. So if you use the O-Lugs approved "catalog correct" approach, anything wrapped isn't a Jazzette either. That might make them all special orders.

As Kurt observes there seem to be a lot more wrapped ones than you might expect. So does that mean special orders weren't so special? Or that the details displayed in the catalog were always open to change? Does getting a wrap when they aren't offered mean that much more or less than getting a Jazz Festival snare instead of a Supraphonic? I certainly don't know.

I don't have any catalogs post 1973 until 1980 (were there any?). By 1980 all bets are off because the Jazzette is now 12/14/20 in 6 ply shells! Twenty inch bass Jazzette?!? Clearly Ludwig weren't as strict about terminology as our friend O-Lugs.

Posted on 12 years ago
#47
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From zenstat

I've sent you a PM regarding the research.Your serial number is about a 1976-ish number (based on Rob Cook's work), which doesn't sit in the series along with the blank serial number blue/olive badges which are around 1970 (and consistent with that date stamp of yours).

Osahead2 - I would not rely too heavily upon Rob Cook's guide when it gets into the 1970s period. I give it credit as the only of the four published guides (Rob Cook's The Ludwig Book, Ned Ingberman's article in DRUM! in 2002, Ludwigdrummer.com's chart, and John Aldridge's Chaotic Creativity article in DRUM! in 2005) (three of the four are here: http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/serial_numbers.html) that attempted to do much with B/O badge drums, but it has some issues. It is based upon a small number of reports from the B/O badge drums. What I have discerned is that the bulk of the B/O badge drums are also reported in Paulo Sburlati's book. If you read Mr. Sburlati's book you learn that many of the dates from his B/O badge drums are not based upon date stamps, but appear to be estimates. Because data was lacking, Cook's chart omits some years and then appears to lump multiple other years together into 1976. Therefore, with Cook's guide, the lack of reliable data points was compounded by some rough date estimates and some confusing presentation of the data.

Cook's Guide for Blue & Olive Badges (copied from Ludwig's website)

1969 765XXX - 834XXX

1970 (Out of sequence, unnumbered)

1971 835XXX - 895XXX

1972 896XXX - 916XXX

1976 917XXX - 1290XXX

1978 XXXXXXX

1979 XXXXXXX - 2013537

Based upon several reports, the main string of no serial number badges can be linked to the September/October 1970 time frame. Other no serial number badges reported for other time periods may have had them, but they would have been trimmed off to fit the vent holes drilled for Keystone badges. 1970 was not as chaotic as Mr. Cook's chart would make it appear. The vast majority of drums I have seen from that year fit into very predictable patterns. There were also many drums produced in 1973, 1974 and 1975, even it the chart makes it appear that none were.

As zenstat indicates, there is an effort to improve upon the current dating guides for Ludwig. It is based upon data gathered from over one thousand drums that possess both serial numbers and date stamps. The full results are not yet available, as I intend to present them along with a detailed summary of the methodology I employed and include several other observations that emerged from information from a large number of drums. I will say that date stamps appear to have continued through most of 1971. Therefore, this guide should extend the time frame for reliable date estimating through 1971. [Note: Another 50 drums possess date codes rather than date stamps, like wflkurt's drum with the 4272 date code. The date codes appeared on paper labels that surfaced in the 1971/72 time frame. If the date code can be deciphered, more information can be gained which will help this effort.]

Although not germain to this current discussion, there is also a dating guide for Ludwig Standards on the way. I have collected data on these drums and the paper associated with that project has been drafted. I hope to make it available soon.

Rick

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 12 years ago
#48
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I should add that based upon the data that I have collected, your drum with serial number 1029445 does not appear to be from the same time frame as the majority of your other drums. It's serial number is well above the ones that I have seen with date stamps through late 1971. Extrapolating from what I have recorded, it appears to be from more of the 1973 time frame. Note that this is just an estimate, based upon a number of assumptions which I did not detail fully here. Further, it is well established that there is not a strict correlation between date stamps and serial numbers during the Keystone badge era. This continued to be true for the early B/O badge era as well. Once the date stamps ceased, it is even more difficult to determine how serial numbered badges were issued.

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 12 years ago
#49
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From wflkurt

Honestly I think ludwig would sell anything back then catalog item or not. It's not like it was hard to wrap a jazzette since the only extra wrapped drum was the bass drum since the toms were already available in the downbeat set up.Honestly I have seen far more wrapped jazzettes than wood stained ones. Most of the ones I have seen were keystone too. It's hard to read the serial number on my bass drum as the previous owner(s) folded the rail onto the badge scratching the heck out of the badge. I was under the assumption that my set was in the 1972-73 range. There are no date stamps anywhere.

Kurt, if the is were the case, I wonder if the bass drum's heads fit tight? Or are you suggesting that they actually laid up a Jazzette bass with wrap?

btw, this is my fake diy duco Club Date Jazzette with matching Pioneer; 12x18, 8x12, 12x15, with more anomalies (& counterfeit badges) than you can count. I don't think even Ludwig could put together a 'franken-jazzette' like this one...marko

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Posted on 12 years ago
#50
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