very cool drums...I've been on a huge Black Oyster(bowling ball) kick.....I really, really like it now.

I took a good look at my 5x14 snare and it has the script logo butt plate and a blackface block letters P-85.... with clear interior with that ugly low sitting B/O badge without a serial number. Like you said, I guess it's a transition period 5x14, 3 ply, snare drum. I posted more pic's if you like to see the items in question.

Gee, I really wonder what time period was the Ludwig transition to B/O... as you know my 14x18 bass drum is date stamped Oct 1, 1970... which is the only clue I have... the good news is; they all came as a GROUPING when I got them... including the 12x14 Jazzette bass drum...

Thanks bcarey13... I kinda wish they were a different color... but the black bowling ball is a true sign of the times 1970 groovy cool color for sure!

wflkurt, if you get time... I would love to see pictures of your Ludwig Jazzette!

Totally false about the wraps not being offered until the 70's. My dad bought a Jazzette new in 1968, ordered it in fact, finished in the Black Panther wrap. One other thing he ordered on it, that everybody on here says it wouldn't have come that way, was a shell mount cymbal holder on the bass drum. He substituted that for a floor cymbal stand at the time (budget would not allow both.) While the kit left the family's possesion some time in the early 90's (I am still looking for it to show up sometime, I know its out there somewhere) I still have the original Supraphonic that came with it. All the drums were keystone badge and dated to late 1968. (He took delivery of them in very early 1969.)

Moral of the story, don't believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet. LoLoLoLo

Wow, did you say a 1968 Black Panther Jazzette kit??? And a factory installed cymbal holder attached to the bass drum shell??? Experts will say NO WAY... but, I understand crazy things happened during those days!

Ludwig-dude, I would love to see that rare bird. Never in all my years have I ever seen such a kit but would like too. Your dad sounds like a really cool person to have ordered a Jazzette like that. Where did he order his kit from?

I'll have to dig up some pics later of it. He ordered it from the local music store that was in Reading, MA where he lived at the time. Don't look for it now, it's long gone. Funny thing, that same store is where Brad Whitford of Aerosmith learned to play guitar from one of my dad's long-time friends who used to teach there, Ed Marino (shameless plug for Ed...lol!)

As a side note, just realized this is my 3600th post on the VDF...wow!

I don't know where you guys get off saying that experts will say "NO WAY!"

I have said all along that there are exceptions in the game of collecting.

I will also reiterate saying that, IN GENERAL, there must be a standardized reference for rare drums and kits. So, when collectors who want to get a drum kit made in the way that the Ludwig Drum Company prescribed, then the catalogs are the ultimate references.

But ,beyond that, there are exceptions. When it comes to Jazzette kits, many people didn't like the finish options that Ludwig assigned to the kit (maple or mahogany). Black Panther was a cool finish of the day and so it only goes to prove that it, or any other finish, could be had on any configuration you wanted -including Jazzettes.

But, years later, now that we have developed a collector's ,market, we see lots of fakes or homemade DIY projects turning up. And since the Jazzette is one of Ludwig's most valuable and collectible drum kits, there have been LOTS of "funny" Jazzettes....and, more often than not, it involves a 14 X 18 deep bass drum vs. the true Jazzette size of 12 X 18.

I think it's a given that a Jazzette can have any finish option...but, still, the collectors will always want the maple or the mahogany versions because of the purity of the collectible.

Well as a collector I don't buy into that theory. By that definition every downbeat kit should be black oyster pearl and every super classic should be silver sparkle like Joe Morello's kit for "purity" sake.

I personally think collectors go for finish rarity rather than "purity" as you say. A black panther jazzette has got to be the rarest of the rare and I had one and was foolish enough to let it go. Of course when I parted with it there was no "vintage" drum market. There was just old and used. Live and learn.

WHAT? You're talking about two COMPLETELY different things, man. I can't even believe I have to make this distinction, but...

When an instrument gets direct association with a star like Ringo (Starr) or John Bonham or Joe Morello...etc., etc., etc... it takes on a completely different category of collectible. My reference to the "purity" of the Jazzette makes no star-assignment.

If there was any star-association to the Jazzette, it would be Roy Haynes, of course. But, Roy Haynes didn't command that same kind of "superstar" status to the point where collectors try and collect "his" color of Jazzette. Roy, did, however, prefer the Jazz Combo snare drum which somewhat distinguished "his" version from the catalog version. (By the way, the black Cortex Jazzette pictured in the Jazzette section of this forum is SUPPOSED to have originally ordered by Roy Haynes, himself and was never picked up. That's the story, anyway.)

One reason why these little details became important is because when it was determined several years ago that Jazzettes were rather valuable, the market started to see lots of funny Jazzettes. SO....there were lots of arguments that couldn't be settled in any other way than to agree on a standardized reference for what was supposed to be what.

That's where the catalogs became THE reference.

All bets are off when stardom has been assigned to a specific model, size, configuration, etc. of a drum set. And YOU already know that, L-D. Mister T